Alchemy & Dreams In Beetlejuice Part 2

^^^^^^^ All of this.

There's a difference between 'telling your own version' of a myth, and telling a completely different story. If you need to change a pre-existing character so much that they feel like a new character, then it's simply bad writing.

Miller is especially self-righteous about her retellings in interviews. Are her retellings 'other versions' of the myths? If by 'other versions' you mean distorting the mythology and missing its point, or utilizing foreign mythology as an aesthetic to draw people in, then yeah, I guess.

Readers who are ignorant of the myths or have no respect for the culture those myths belong to, will then take Miller's distorted stories as fact, and assume that hers is the correct way of telling them. And, evidently, Miller's fans will not tolerate anyone criticizing her.

Well I promise you that her books give the opposite impression.

In fact, her characterization of Patroclus alone is enough for me to doubt her both as an academic and as a researcher.

(Not to mention her tendency to invent unnecessary details, things that don't happen in the myths, like Circe getting assaulted, which was specifically added to 'justify' Circe's behaviour in the Odyssey. A+ writing, how very progressive)

A classicist like Miller should know that when you apply modern standards to an ancient myth, essentially removing it from the era in which it was written, and ignoring the reasons the myth was created, then you're missing half of the context.

Either she

has severely misunderstood the characters in the Homeric epics and Greek mythology in general (which doesn't say much about her as a classicist), or

she does understand the characters in the myths, but she cares more about what kind of story will 'sell'. She's thinking, "Let's see, if I frame Homer as problematic, and promote my books as the solution to the 'Homer problem', then of course people will prefer my stories."

If it's the latter, it's not a surprise, and she's not the first person to do it, and unfortunately she won't be the last.

@rightwheretheyleftme I think you're going into these retellings without fully grasping the purpose and cultural value of Greek mythology. I think you're glorifying these retellings regardless of how off the mark they are when it comes to characterization.

@lez-exclude-men If you're enjoying Miller's books that much, then I hate to break it to you, but you are the one who needs to get 'elbows deep' in research. But if you have no desire to do all that work, maybe you shut up and let people express their opinions? Miller's work is flawed, and we are allowed to point it out.

This isn't about Miller being a woman, and it isn't about all retellings being inherently bad. This is about Miller not respecting and not understanding the mythology she's so eager to 'fix'.

So Madeline Miller is writing a Persephone retelling. So let's make our bets about the book.

The winners will win this picture of a brick.

So let's make a bet.

A.) She will potray Demeter as an abusive mother, whaile the kidnapping will be ereased, and Hades will be baby boyfied.

B.) Hades will be potrayd as eveil incarnate, and Demeter will be potrayd as a poor poor blorbo (similar to how she potrayd Circe)

C.) Both will be potrayd as the worst. Demeter, and Hades will be potrayd as abusive, and Persephone will be potrayd as a poor poor girl who always has to suffer.

My bet is that it will be C.).

unpopular opinion but with the new tide of Greek mythology stories and retellings, Greek Cultural Sensitivity Readings are absolutely necessary. We are in 2024, with thousands of fics and retellings out there!! How is this not a thing yet?? There's vast improvement one can achieve by working professionally on their text with a Greek. I've seen it so many times!!

Also, duh, I'm offering the service BUT I want you to know that the situation with the inaccuracies of SERIOUS works is so dire that initially I didn't even do it for money. As a writer I just wanted to... fix things, to set a new standard for writers and the industry that sells us the most heavily Americanized pop-culture material and passes it as "authentic vibes of Greek mythology". (And of course there were writers who wanted to do right by their story and they had reached out to me. So kudos to them as well!)

Okay, but why does Cultural Sensitivity Reading make a vast difference and it's not just smoke and mirrors?

As a Greek, I am tired of well-meaning writers and authors butchering very basic elements of my culture. It's not their fault exactly, since they were raised in another culture with a different perspective. And nobody clued them in on how different Greek culture is from theirs, so writers sometimes assume that their culture is the default and they project that into ancient Greece. (Even published professionals like Madeline Miller have written "UK or US in antiquity" (with a very colonialist flavor) instead of writing "Ancient Greece". (Looking at you, Circe!)

Even writers who researched a lot before coming to me still had a lot of misinformation or wrong information in their text, easily verifiable by the average Greek. Again, not their fault. They can only access certain information, which does not include Greek scholarly work and scientific articles that DO offer valuable context.

Translation, accuracy, and meaning: If you ever wondered what a word means or how to pronounce it, here's your chance! There are Greeks like me who are knowledgeable and have a keen interest in antiquity and they will be able to read and compare ancient texts, and dive deeper into the work of Greek scholars regarding those texts.

If you want to create new words, you can do that as well! (It doesn't always work, but we can try. Greek is a really rich language and has a word about everything) If you use existing words, I can help you separate reality from fantasy in the context of your story.

(Do not assume we Greeks are ignorant of our heritage, or that we don't know how to research! Our archaeology sector is huge and archaeological museums are closer to most of us than your local Target is to you)

I guarantee there are things you never thought about Greece and the Mediterranean - from the ancient to the modern era. Sprinkling elements like phrases, types of interactions, customs, songs, instruments, dances, etc , into your text will make your text absolutely rich in culture.

Names matter!!! The genders of the names matter, diminutives matter (If I see one more "Perse" for Persephone I will claw my eyes out along with a few thousand Greeks), naming traditions matter!!! In many cases you should not even use a diminutive!!

You will be able to write about a foreign culture easily! Because of the continuity of Greek culture, you can even write a few more recent Greek elements to fill in the gaps. I can make sure they are not mismatched, and they will complement your ancient setting. I have observed a few things I didn't know we had since antiquity, but they make sense because our land has certain characteristics.

Non-Greek writers often miss the whole context of Greek culture! Do you know how Greek respect towards deities and parents looks like? What tones we use when we talk to our elders? When to use honorific plural - if your setting is more modernized?

Oh, and please let's avoid caricatures when describing Greeks?? (even fantasy Greeks) There can be heavy exotisation and odd descriptions of Greeks, as if we are another species. Even in published works. For many western writers it's difficult to catch, unfortunately.

The whole process is actually way easier than you think. You send me a text, I make notes and then we have some discussion on your vision.

It's always okay to seek guidance from the locals! You are not "guilty" when you admit you don't know! How can you know if you don't ask?? You can't imagine what relief and "πάλι καλά!!!" I read/see from other Greeks when I tell them another foreigner is using me for cultural sensitivity? Greeks want you to seek help and will NOT shame you for it!

(On the contrary, you have no idea how many eye-rolls Greeks do when they see a blatantly wrong thing in a story... Which has happened pretty often for many years now. Can we do better as an industry?? Please???)

You can send me a personal message to share your story, or ask what this whole cultural sensitivity thing is all about, or ask about what I have done so far and how I can help. But for the love of all that's good, don't let your story be another "generic greek myth retelling"! And don't let others sell you their generic greek myth retellings!!

Get in loser, we're going to the park

March 12: Extras are seen on the set of Christopher Nolan's 'THE ODYSSEY' in Greece.

Stop Treating Greek Mythology Like Just Another Fictional Franchise

I am honestly tired of seeing people lump Greek mythology into the same category as DC Comics, anime, or any other modern fictional universe. There’s this frustrating trend where people discuss figures like Odysseus or Achilles in the same breath as Batman or Goku, as if they’re just characters in a long-running franchise rather than deeply rooted cultural and literary icons from one of the most influential civilizations in history.

Yes, myths contain fantastical elements—gods turning into animals, heroes slaying monsters, mortals being punished or rewarded in ways that defy logic. But that does not mean Greek mythology is the same as a modern fantasy novel. These myths were part of an entire civilization’s identity. The ancient Greeks didn’t just tell these stories for entertainment; they used them to explain the world, explore human nature, justify traditions, and even shape their religious practices. The Odyssey isn’t just an adventurous tale about a guy struggling to get home—it’s a reflection of Greek values, an exploration of heroism, fate, and the gods' role in human life. When people treat it as nothing more than “fiction,” they erase the cultural weight it carried for the people who created it.

Greek mythology functioned in antiquity—these were their sacred stories, their way of making sense of the universe. And yet, people will still argue that the Odyssey is no different from a DC Elseworlds story, as if it was just an early attempt at serialized storytelling rather than a cornerstone of Western literature.

Part of the problem comes from how myths have been adapted in modern media. Hollywood and pop culture have turned Greek mythology into a shallow aesthetic, cherry-picking elements for the sake of spectacle while stripping away any historical or cultural depth. Movies like Clash of the Titans or games like God of War reimagine the myths in ways that make them feel like superhero stories—cool battles, flashy gods, exaggerated personalities. And while those adaptations can be fun, they’ve also contributed to this weird idea that Greek myths are just another IP (intellectual property) that anyone can rewrite however they want, without considering their original context.

This becomes especially frustrating when people defend radical reinterpretations of Greek mythology under the “it’s just fiction” excuse. No, Greek mythology is not just fiction! It’s cultural heritage. It’s part of history. It’s literature. It’s philosophy. If someone drastically rewrote a Shakespearean play and justified it by saying, “Well, it’s just an old story,” people would push back. If someone did the same to the Mahabharata or The Tale of Genji , there would be outrage. But when it happens to Greek myths? Suddenly, it’s “just fiction,” and any criticism is dismissed as overreacting.

I am not saying mythology should be untouchable. Reinterpretation and adaptation have always been a part of how these stories survive—Euripides retold myths differently from Homer, and Ovid gave his own spin on Greek legends in his Metamorphoses. The difference is that those ancient reinterpretations still respected the source material as cultural history, rather than treating it as some creative sandbox where anything goes. When people defend blatant inaccuracies in modern adaptations by saying, “It’s just a story, why does it matter?” they are ignoring the fact that these myths are a major link to an ancient civilization that shaped so much of what we call Western culture today.

Ultimately, Greek mythology deserves the same level of respect as any major historical and literary tradition. It’s not a superhero franchise. It’s not a random fantasy series. It’s the legacy of a civilization that continues to influence philosophy, literature, art, and even modern storytelling itself. So let’s stop treating it like disposable entertainment and start appreciating it for the depth, complexity, and significance it truly holds.

Apollo and Artemis

March 12: Tom Holland and Christoper Nolan prepare to film 'THE ODYSSEY' at the Greek sea.

Where do you think that recent trend of making Dionysus a peaceful deity comes from ? Unless it's a coincidence that both Hades II and Kaos decided it. Even then, I don't understand how they had the idea. There are at least 10 myths that prove the opposite. A quick look on Theoi is enough.

The only time he's really called gentle, it's literally used as an antithesis to his terrifying nature (because duality is awesome).

And seeing this quote requires people to read the Bacchae 😂, yk, an actual source.

(being gentle to Ariadne doesn't mean he's like that to everyone)

So, what do you think ?

Like in Euripides's play, he described him "most gentle and cruel to men". The ancient Greeks new the dichotomy and complexity of his character, but of course many gods could enforce cruelty to those that acted hubris to them.

Dionysus of course ,most of the time in art and literature is casual and relaxed, hence why he didn't get much attention of his more dark side.

Also is the fact how for centuries, the renaissance and mostly Western Europe viewed him. Most people would portray Bacchus and other Roman depictions of him. Alas why this common misconception exists today.

It's also worth noting that many people look at things at a surface level. They see a couple of based and mid portrayals of Dionysus and think they know enough about him. That's an issue i see in retellings of people constantly making him a caricature because of this surface narrative.

Listen, they removed "I'm Wishing/One Song" and the "One Song" reprise.

It was bound to flop, they had it coming.

I like the idea of Ariadne meeting her mother in law. After Semele gets resurrected and becomes immortal, there's no doubt of them meeting together.

Imagine Semele spending time with her son she never got to hold as a baby, now being all grown up, married and with kids. She would love to spend time filling the gaps of their lost time.

She would love to help Ariadne with becoming a mother, nursing her kids and talking about their past lives when they were mortals. How Ariadne would feel more close to her, than she did with her actual mother.

How Dionysus would often stand there and admire the two most important women of his life being in the same room as him, happy and well.