“One Of The Great Tragedies Of All Forms Of Abuse Is That The Abused Person Can Become Emotionally

Hello! I keep looking for resources on how to know if you've experienced DBMC but a lot of what I've read so far is confusing or really detailed in what drugs are used but not the aftermath effects for a person who has experienced DBMC.

We're already a C-DID system questioning HC-DID after a subsystem of alters accidentally gave us vague memories that imply DBMC. Could you maybe give insight into what a person would experience after DBMC aside from having alters that behave drugged? Thank you!

There are a few studies about this but most of them are about the drug itself. I will continue by pulling from our own experiences and nothing else.

The effects on alters depend on the substance used and for what. Some drugs aid relaxation, some worsen anxiety or pain, some are hallucinogens, and so on. Perps can use these substances in addition to torture, instead of it, or as their own application.

Narco progs are often done with something to sedate the fronter. This could be a drug made for sleep, a medication known to cause that side effect, an allergen that knocks them out after exposure. One purpose can be achieved with whatever they have on hand, and some perps are specific and educated when it comes to DBMC.

Awake progs are the opposite, some kind of stimulant effect. Progs can be mood centric, specific or broad behaviors, anything. Depending on an alter’s use, they may be kept in a substance-specific state as their baseline or be cues into it.

Betas may be constantly bubbly, lacking impulse control, unable to encode memories. Thetas may be cued into trance or out-of-body experiences. Both of these can be done primarily or entirely with substances.

Conditioning could look more like a torture-based route, with a repetitive cue and a release of dopamine upon completion. When drugs are used like torture, they may cause pain that will be stopped upon finishing the task.

The aftereffects of DBMC are different depending on what exactly was done. It can look like alters perpetually in a state, alters with barely any memory of the state, most of the possibilities for TBMCed alters.

This didn’t feel helpful to write, but idk if I can do any better. If you have a slightly different question or something else entirely, I can try again another way. Good luck y’all!

Can you describe or explain what an emotional flashback is? I wanna have that level of awareness too. I was listening to sad music and disassociating too.

Emotional Flashbacks are one of the hallmark symptoms of CPTSD and one of the things that differentiates it from PTSD. 

In PTSD and typical flashbacks you flashback to an event and are re-experiencing that event as an explicit memory. In typical flashbacks you are experiencing a specific memory of an event. 

In CPTSD and Emotional Flashbacks you flashback to an emotional state without a clear memory of the event that caused this state. So you are experiencing the emotions tied to the traumatic event without remembering the event itself. 

This makes it harder to recognize that you are experiencing a flashback because you seem to just feel bad for no reason, especially if you don’t realize that you were triggered. People with CPTSD sometimes can’t remember specific traumatic events because trauma was long term and a part of their daily life, and/or because the trauma began at such an early age. 

To give a more clear example, I recognized that I was having an emotional flashback today because I was feeling frozen, helpless, powerless, and as if my actions would have no impact on the world around me. 

Just recognizing that you are having an emotional flashback can be helpful, but grounding techniques that pull you back into the present are especially helpful. Once I realized I was in an emotional flashback I turned off the sad music and tried to reorient myself to the present. 

Writing this reply to you has actually been very grounding. 

I am seriously thinking about making a big post about this

Can people stop pushing the idea that you shouldn’t share information about RAMCOA at all? Yeah, sharing detailed information about programming publicly or with people who don’t need it can be dangerous, but it’s already such a taboo topic to the point where a lot of survivors feel like they can’t even speak up about what happened to them. And they have the right to, they endured it.

If you’re saying “be careful how much you share about programming” that’s valid. I’ve seen a lot of people saying that and that makes perfect sense. But “don’t talk about RAMCOA” do people not realize that’s what many of the perpetrators of this type of abuse want? They want total silence. They go to insane lengths just to ensure survivors can’t talk about this. They thrive off secrecy. They’re protected by people’s ignorance. This is a widespread issue that requires a societal effort to put a stop to. How will that happen if people aren’t educated on the fact that this happens, at the very least?

I know a lot of people can use this info to hurt people or get some sick pleasure from hearing about the abuse. But that doesn’t take away the need for this to be heard and known about. Stop silencing survivors.

Types of Protectors

Executive/Primary Protector

Oversee general/all system safety matters

Their views and decisions about system safety carry the most weight - their word is final

(Usually) in systems with several protectors - serves an organisational purpose

Tend to be more active than other protectors

Carer/Caregiver

Focus on caring for other system members and the body (emotional & physical well-being)

E.g. hygiene, body health, taking a break when needed, emotional support & care, healthy coping mechanisms

Can be caring for a group of alters, a specific alter, or everyone and anyone in system

(Carers who take care of specifically littles, for example)

Soother

Help calm down emotions when they are overwhelming (e.g. anxiety, panic)

Can either be by supporting an alter internally, getting them to use methods to calm themselves down, or, in some cases, simply the presence of a soother helps dial down emotions

Social Protector

Handle social situations that are considered unsafe by an alter or the system generally

This can be a specific event (parties, going out with friends) or something more longterm (issues between people in a social group - friends, school, work, clubs, online communities ...)

Sexual Protector

Set (sexual) boundaries when others in system find it difficult to

Make sure sexual relations/interactions remain healthy & safe

Can also sometimes take over when whoever's fronting can't handle something sexual

Avenger

Hold anger or/and hatred towards abusers and others who hurt the system

Are often unafraid of putting their foot down when need be

Perse-Protector

Fulfill both the persecutor/prosecutor and also the protector role

Aim to protect the system, which they do successfully to an extent, however sometimes they persecute out of misguidance/misunderstanding

Believe the persecution they do is in order to keep the system safe

Oftentimes, recovering persecutors are a perse-prot at some point (not always though!)

Protectors can fit several subtypes, or none at all! Every system is unique and requires unique roles and alters to fulfill them.

(This is just the ones we're aware of, and definitions can vary slightly. Feel free to add other types or definitions! :))

I’ve been having a bit of a rough time the past couple weeks so I’ve decided to make a self care post of things I do when I’m feeling crappy for other people going through a rough time!

If you’re feeling overwhelmed or anxious then breathe in slowly and deeply for 4 seconds, hold it for 7 seconds, then breathe out slowly for 8 seconds and repeat til you feel calmer. I’ve been told this way of breathing makes your heart rate slow down. It’s helped me not have panic attacks before

Drink water drink water DRINK WATER!!! Honestly a lot of the time when my body is feeling crappy, I just have been drinking enough water (if you struggle getting yourself to drink water then try getting flavor packets to put in it, it’ll make you more likely to want to drink it if it tastes good)

If you’re stuck in one of those vicious cycles of feeling sick because you haven’t eaten and then not eating because you feel sick, then seriously just force yourself to eat a piece of bread or toast or saltine crackers, even if it’s just a few bites. It’ll seriously help you feel just better enough to stomach eating more things a little bit later

Sprite helps settle upset stomachs (this is my go to method for car sickness)

Coca Cola can help with migraines

If you’re congested take hot showers or boil some water, place a towel over your head and lean over the pot breathing in the steam

If you have phlegm in your throat, gargle salt water, it can help clear it out. Doing this consistently for a few days is really helpful

If you’re feeling under the weather at all then drink orange juice or take vitamin c tablets or gummies, vitamin c boosts your immune system

If you’re about to have a panic attack find something physical to focus on or ask someone to bring you something if you can’t yourself. Something that you can feel is a very good option like an icecube to hold or a cold water bottle to press against your face

Drinking cold water when on the verge of a panic attack or coming away from one is helpful too, the sensation of cold water going down your throat can be very calming

If you don’t have anything like those around you then try to list things you can hear or see. Also physical movements can keep you grounded, this is especially helpful if you have someone to talk you through it. Start by rolling your wrists, then flex and unflex your fingers, try doing this with individual fingers, and alternate between these, even adding in more things like rolling your head or shoulders

If you’re feeling lightheaded, especially if you think you might pass out then sit down and put your head between your knees for a while

If you’re going through a depressive episode, if you can’t muster up their energy or motivation for anything else, at least go outside for a few minutes even if you’re in your pajamas. The sunlight and fresh air will help immensely. If you can’t then at least open your window

Open your windows periodically to freshen the air in your room

When you’re feeling crappy take showers! Even if you have to drag yourself in there and just sit in the tub with the water raining down on you, even if you can’t find the motivation to wash your hair (you can even just tie it up and out of the way) just get yourself in there, it’ll do you a world of good to feel at least a little more hygienic

Along these same lines, brush your teeth! Even if that means doing it for half the time you should or even without toothpaste. One of my roommates even just kept a toothbrush on her nightstand and on bad depression days she’d brush with that, where she could do it in bed

Get dressed! Don’t spend all day in your pjs! Even if it’s just changing into sweats or other comfy clothes! Do it! And take the time to dress up nice for yourself once in a while!

If you have any motivation at all for it, clean your room!!! Even if this means just picking up one item of clothing or throwing something on the floor away, it’s a million times better than nothing and you’ll feel better for it even if just a bit

Anyways, I love you all! Take care of yourselves! If you ever need advice or someone to talk to I’m here for you! I love and appreciate all of you! I’m proud of you for everything you’ve accomplished even if it’s just getting yourself out of bed!

why do people say programming doesn’t exist and that it must be false memories? /gen

Lots of reasons.

Most people don't like to think about other people getting hurt. They also especially do not like to think that children are being hurt. And even more they do not like to think that child abuse is occurring while someone else who could have stopped it was there. This is why when child abuse survivors of any kind tell family members/friends who weren't abusive that so and so abused them, the immediate reaction is typically denial. Whether they accept it later on or not, the initial reaction is usually defense and denial. Even when they do accept it there is often a degree of "how could I have missed that" that these individuals express either to the survivor or to their own friends. People want to keep and uphold the view that most people around them are good. The concept of "groups of people who all decided to abuse children together" is contradictory to that worldview so they discard it, but if you ask them about specific things like child soldiers and trafficking that they have probably heard of (and also probably associate with Poor Uncivilized Third World Countries(tm) instead of happening in their own countries), they will usually say that's real.

Another reason is that most peoples' idea of programming is from media, mostly revolving around like...super powers or a person becoming basically a robot or they think it's all like cults in the woods or whatever. They think TBMC is some sci-fi thing, they don't know what it looks like, and they aren't thinking about the abuse part. And I do think that it kind of sucks that MC is the term because it does sound like some sci-fi/dystopian thing just from the name. It sounds very silly if you don't know much about it. In reality it is pretty boringly based in psychological responses to torture.

Another reason is that FMSF was very successful in their smear campaign despite being made up nearly entirely of parents who had gotten successfully sued for child abuse by their children. The fact that academics even marginally acknowledged them was a mistake IMO. Not to say that I'm not like the other girls but if a group of parents like this started making shit up around me I would simply roll my eyes and ignore them. Unfortunately, psychiatric abuse exists and the famous ones kind of screwed everybody else. Most famous one being Sybil. Instead of getting mad at psychiatric abuse occurring it became a focus on how DID itself is fake and abuse memories a person has discussed in therapy is therefore also fake.

Another is a community issue. There are individuals who saw RA survivors getting attention from court cases and decided that they would Also like to get attention and would make up stories which would eventually get debunked OR they sounded so fictional (because they were) that most people then assumed that all RA survivors were like that. There were and still are also survivors who were so desperate to be believed that they would tell their stories in great detail--except their stories usually also included lies that their groups told them which discredited them. Most of these are lies that the average person would find ridiculous and factually incorrect and so nobody would believe the rest of what they were saying.

Lastly, many RAMCOA survivors are simply not palatable. A lot of us are not the cutesy socially acceptable kind of survivors that people feel pity for and want to give a blanket. Many RAMCOA survivors especially when they first get out or first start processing this are aggressive, lash out, behave erratically, make no sense to anyone, have no/low empathy, say very socially inappropriate things, etc. This goes double if isolation from the rest of the world was a big part of the abuse. And to be clear I do not mean like...ghosts their friends or is a little snarky or has a breakdown sometimes in a cute little corner with quiet little sobs. I mean shit that you would get shunned by polite society and get the cops called on you for. The ones that don't escape (either stayed in or the group dissolved/faded over time) tend to be more stable appearing than escapees but they're still not the type of survivor people care about.

what is the difference between did, complex did, and highly complex did? where would a small system w a subsystem fall into that?

The differences are usually described as where they fall on the dissociation scale according to the Theory of Structural Dissociation (ToSD). Highly complex DID (HC-DID) does not have any medical recognition as far as I know, I believe it’s mostly a community term to bring survivors of RAMCOA programming together (please correct me if this is wrong). Distinctions in system structure between DID and complex/polyfragmented DID (C-DID or P-DID or PF-DID) have been documented, but literature on complex DID hasn’t been updated since the 1980s if I remember correctly.

Within the community, distinctions are made as follows:

DID is defined as two or more alters and amnesia between parts. This is distinguished from OSDD-1a, which does not include distinct parts, and OSDD-1b, which does not include dissociative amnesia (dissociative amnesia in DID can manifest as gaps in important life events, lapses in memory of recent events or well-learned skills such as driving, and discovery of possessions the patient does not remember owning or purchasing).

C-DID is not so much determined by alter count (as people have claimed it is) than it is determined by the actual structure and features of the system. For example: C-DID is more likely to have a complex and expansive innerworld, complex splitting patterns (splitting multiple alters at once, splitting groups, splitting a few fully formed alters and a group of fragments, etc.), and subsystems (alters with alters). It has also been said that polyfragmentation is a phenomenon that starts with normalized, everyday abuse and trauma before the age of 5.

I did not just see an endogenic system coining terms for "programmed headmates" as in the realms of computers. You do not just say shit like that lightly. You do not understand the kind of harm that does to programmed systems like us. Please please please don't do things like this.

You are literally describing RAMCOA experiences. You are adding more harm and confusion to survivors like us. This has nothing to do with you being endogenic it has everything to do with how this is harmful to RAMCOA systems. I understand the system travel should make it clear it's not about DID- but honestly if you have actual programming something is very wrong. If you have internal programmers you are not endogenic- you are likely a RAMCOA survivor. Please please do not refuse to look into mental health aid and treatment. Please do not engage in this. It is dangerous.

Please you do not understand how desperate I am for people to listen to this- you are describing effects of mind control on systems.

Emotional Abuse

What is it?

Emotional abuse is "any act including confinement, isolation, verbal assault, humiliation, intimidation, infantilization, or any other treatment which may diminish the sense of identity, dignity, and self-worth." This is also known as psychological abuse.

Signs and Examples

Humiliation, negating, and criticizing

Name-calling and derogatory nicknames. Blatantly calls you “stupid”, “a loser”, or other insults. Maybe they use terms of “endearment” that actually highlight things you’re sensitive about and ignore you when asked to stop.

Character assassination. Includes the word “always” (always wrong, always late, etc.).

Yelling, screaming, and swearing in order to make you feel small.

Patronizing. Belittling you with mock pity.

Public embarrassment. Picking fights, sharing your secrets, making fun of you in public.

Dismissiveness. Can include snarky replies (e.g., “Who cares about that?”) and/or dismissive gestures (e.g., eye rolling, smirking).

“Joking”. Reacting strongly to your discomfort with something they’ve said with phrases like “It was just a joke”.

Insulting your appearance. Phrases like “You’re wearing that?”, or saying that they’re lucky they chose you because no one else would have.

Belittling your accomplishments. They may shrug them off, say they don’t matter, or claim personal responsibility for your success.

Putting down your interests. Suggesting your hobby is a waste of time, feeling offended that you’d do something without them involved.

Pushing your buttons. Repeatedly doing something that they know annoys you, ignoring your requests to stop.

Control and shame

Making threats.

Monitoring your whereabouts. Always needing to know where you are, maybe even showing up without notice to the place you said you’d be at.

Spying on you digitally. Demanding to have all of your passwords or making you have no passwords. Repeatedly checking your email, social media, texts, etc.

Gaslighting. Denying that specific events, arguments, or agreements happened. This can leave you questioning your own memory.

Making all the decisions or insisting that they make all the decisions. Controlling as much of your life as they possibly can.

Controlling your access to finances. Financial abuse. Making you have to ask them for money. Making you account for every bit of money you spend.

Emotional blackmailing. Attempting to get you to do things by manipulating your feelings. They may play the victim or guilt-trip you.

Lecturing you constantly. Making it clear they consider you inferior by listing out your mistakes and dragging it out as long as possible.

Giving direct orders. They expect you to do everything they say with no question.

Having frequent outbursts. Getting enraged that you didn’t or did do something, no matter if you knew to do it or not.

Feigning helplessness. Making you think they don’t know how to do something so you do it instead of them.

Unpredictability. Getting enraged one minute and taking you on a romantic dinner the next.

Walking out. This is a control tactic that leaves you absolutely helpless. Parent/partner leaving an outing without you. Employer walking out in the middle of a meeting.

Stonewalling you. During an argument or disagreement, they shut down and refuse to respond to you.

Accusing, blaming, and denial

Jealousy. Accusing you of flirting/cheating or insisting that if you loved them you would spend all your time with them.

Using guilt. Guilt-tripping you into doing things.

Unrealistic expectations. They expect you to meet every expectation they have set, no matter how unreachable they are.

Goading and blaming. Making you upset on purpose and then twisting the blame back to you.

Denying the abuse. On par with the gaslighting, will deny any inclination that they could do any harm to you.

Trivializing. Accusing you of overreacting or misunderstanding when you tell them they’ve hurt your feelings.

Blaming you for their problems. When things go wrong, they always blame you.

Destroying and denying. Destroying your belongings and then denying that they did it.

Emotional neglect and isolation

Dehumanizing you. Making you feel inferior or subhuman.

Keeping you from socializing. Changing plans or begging you not to go out with friends.

Invalidating you. Not caring about your needs, boundaries, and desires, and making you feel bad for having these things.

Trying to come between you and your family. Telling family you don’t want to see them, making excuses as to why you can’t make it to family functions, telling you your family doesn’t care.

Using the silent treatment. Ignoring your attempts at conversation.

Withholding affection. Refusing to have contact with you if you offend them.

Shutting down communication. Waving you off, changing the subject, or ignoring you when you want to talk about something.

Actively working to turn others against you. May tell others that you’re lying, having a psychotic break, or having an emotional breakdown.

Denying support. When you need emotional support they shut you down, tell you to deal with it, and/or insult you.

Interrupting. Getting in your face and/or taking away whatever you’re doing to make you acutely aware that your attention should be on them.

Disputing your feelings. Whatever emotion you’re feeling, they insist you shouldn’t be feeling like that.

This is not a comprehensive list.

These signs of abuse are the same as the signs of “narcissistic abuse” which are paraded around the internet. “Narc abuse” people fuck off.

SOURCE

How to Recognize the Signs of Emotional Abuse - Healthline

In one of his books, Kantor offers insight at other facets of AvPD that exist beyond the DSM criteria, that are often overlooked (and aren’t easily explained by other disorders).

On “classic” avoidants (Type I):

“(…) profile of pervasive shyness and fearful isolation. Within this class, variations of severity exist on a continuum. Some of these individuals live by themselves or with their family, either staying at home and not socializing at all, or socializing only with a few selected individuals, attempting to meet people but having difficulty connecting as they try, but fail, to form sustained and sustaining relationships. Others form relationships that are only partially avoidant: limited in degree or of reduced intensity such as bicoastal marriages; serial monogamous relationships; or relationships that are stably unstable, dysfunctional because being with unattainable partners makes the relationships unlikely to come to fruition, or if they do, sooner or later, they are destined to dissolve.”

A fear of flooding and losing control of various impulses due to overstimulation (…) disturbing inner peace (…)

A fear of failure, accompanied by a paradoxical (masochistic) fear of success (…)

Self-criticism due to self-condemnation by a harsh, unforgiving, shaming conscience, causing one to become guilty over legitimate desires and ordinary (but to the avoidant extraordinarily shameful), interpersonal foibles (…)

Relational idealism consisting of a disdain for relationships that appear to be imperfect, originating in excessive expectations of oneself and others (…)

Covalent characterological features, including histrionic (oedipal) rivalry that buries the potential for closeness, intimacy, and commitment under competitive struggles with others—as Gabbard notes, “entailing an aggressive demand for complete attention… associated with a wish to scare away or kill off all rivals… [with the competitiveness] interwoven with a sense of shame” obsessive fretting about the correctness and propriety of one’s interpersonal actions (…) paranoid suspiciousness about the negative things others are, or might be, thinking; depressive alarmism and pessimism that nothing will ever work out as hoped and planned for and the worrisome fear that if all is not already lost, it soon will be; excessive “don’t make waves” passivity, accompanied by a paradoxical fear of passivity and so a need to be on constant alert and continuously active to assure always being in complete control of everything about one’s relationships; extreme dependence possibly leading to a codependent relationship with one person to avoid having to relate to any and all others (…)

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Excessive Defensiveness

Avoidance is not a static, but an active, dynamic condition—what Millon and Davis call an “active detachment,” that is, one with important defensive components. Sullivan describes avoidance as a “somnolent detachment,” the protective dynamism “called out by inescapable and prolonged anxiety.” (…) What is avoided is an allusion either to a temptation for the warded-off drive or to a feared punishment or both.” Therefore some observers, emphasizing how the avoidant inhibits important aspects of living to reduce (social) anxiety, suggest that the term inhibited personality could substitute for the term avoidant personality disorder. Avoidant detachment is made up of the following defenses, among others:

Identification with the aggressor. Avoidants create expected losses actively to handle the possibility of experiencing unexpected losses passively, for example, “I fear your rejecting me” becomes “I reject you to avoid being rejected by you.”

Masochism. Self-sacrificing, self-abnegating, and self-punitive responses are an avoidant’s way to counter forbidden desire. Avoidants commit a kind of social suicide to punish themselves for what they consider to be their unacceptable instinctual urges. They suffer now to avoid suffering even more later.

Repression. Repression is the avoidant’s way to detoxify anxious thoughts and feelings by suppressing them, then acting as if they no longer exist (…)

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Associated Characterological Problems

Obsessionalism. Avoidants are worrisome individuals (…) often rigid, inflexible people who, stuck in routine, have difficulty adapting to unexpected life changes. Also, ambivalent about relationships, instead of settling in to a given relationship, they do and undo it: attempting to relate, becoming anxious, pulling back, then trying again either with the same person or with someone different, ad infinitum (…)

Paranoia. Avoidants are hypervigilant individuals who fear something bad can or will happen to them (…) They take impersonal matters far too personally and see rejections that are not there as a clear and present danger, or actual attack. A difficulty with basic trust leads them to become highly skeptical of everyone, convinced that no one will show them any goodwill whatsoever, and certain that either they will trust everyone and get burned, or trust no one and get dumped (…)

Depression. Avoidants tend to be depressed individuals with intense negative moods (…) They hold the pessimistic view that when it comes to relationships, there is no sense even trying since there is little chance of ever succeeding. Depressive cognitions prevail (…) so that they readily come to believe that any sign of disinterest in them constitutes a turndown, a turndown a rejection, and a rejection an epochal tragedy (…)

And “counterphobic” avoidants (Type II), who are avoidants who unlike the “typical” ones, manage to form connections, albeit in turbulent ways.

Type IIa avoidants can generally maintain superficial, short-lived, relationships with people and the subtype, “mingles”, jump from relationship to relationship unable to settle and not minding quality.

Type IIb avoidants, “seven-year itch”, can form proper bonds with others but for a limited time, because they burn out or become disinterested as time passes.

Type IIc avoidants, have severe codependency tendencies.